Amber Law Holistic Lawyer Movement

How to Apply Truthfulness in the Workplace

Nalanie Harilela Chellaram

Nalanie Harilela Chellaram is a modern spiritual teacher, a true soul doctor, dedicated to selfless service. Nalanie founded the Integral Yoga Centre in Gibraltar in 1989. She is also the founder of the George Harilela Hall in Sotogrande and gives satsangs locally and internationally. In March 2008, Nalanie received an award from Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II being recognised for her ‘Services to Humanity’.

For many years, I have referred Family law clients to Nalanie to support them: with their mental and emotional health; to work through their personal problems; and to reach a space of clarity and peace; regardless of whether the couple decided to separate and co-parent, or work at saving their marriage.

In the following video, Nalanie invited me as her Guest Speaker to share my thoughts on the practice of truthfulness (Satya), generally and in my practice of Holistic Law.

I hope you find the video of value and set out the script below for those who prefer to read.

How to Apply Truthfulness in the Workplace

Wednesday Satsang - Nalanie Chellaram with special guest Amber Turner

Posted by Nalanie Chellaram on Wednesday, January 20, 2021

Part one: Truthfulness

“The moral of the ‘Cry Wolf’ story is: a liar will not be believed even when s/he starts to speak the truth,” Nalanie reminded us, “so if you want respect in life it is vital, vital to honour truth in your life. When you speak the truth people respect you, they know, there is an energy, there is a flow, there is trust, there is faith”.

Nalanie continues, “We are told that we can’t tell the truth, we can’t be who we are, what if we are not liked, what if people don’t accept it and all these things society has taught us which is so far from the truth…”

Some people say, ‘there is your truth, there is my truth and there is the truth’… the truth for me is truth is one, paths are many. What is the one truth? That we are all human beings having spiritual experience on this earth… instead of creating wars our job here is to understand that we are all brother and sisters and go beyond the ego which loves to say ‘I am right and you are wrong’… Sometimes people’s ‘different’, is not wrong, or right… (e.g. when colour-blind people see colours differently to non-colour-blind people).

Every single scripture will tell you about truth. Lord Jesus said, ‘know the truth and it will set you free’, the Upanishads say, ‘the path to the divine can only be reached through truth’. Why? Because truth is pure.

A person who tells the truth has nothing in the back of their mind. Whereas a person when they make up stories or tell a lie… I thought I was doing it because I didn’t want to hurt somebody else but that wasn’t good enough because it makes your mind very, very cloudy…. We start hiding things and pretending… when it becomes troublesome is when the lies grow very big and I have seen this in my work with relationships. I’m very sorry to say in too many relationships people are not truthful and then what happens, they keep lying to each other or they don’t tell each other what is really disturbing them… it builds up like a monster, like a disease inside of them… sick with depression…its all the years of lying to themselves, their partners, or friends, people that they are supposed to love…

If you can’t be truthful to yourself, to the people you love, then what is the point of anything? If this untruthfulness has made you suffer so much…

We were born to feel, to be, in harmony with ourselves. Our thought, our words, our actions… it’s so important to be in harmony before we feel peace. But if you are thinking one thing, speaking another way and acting another way, can you see what is happening? It’s like a guitar with broken strings; …you will never play a good tune… We need to tune ourselves and that’s what truthfulness does.

The yogis talk about truth as the essence, life. Why? Because the energy is pure… for example water, neutral, you can see through it, there’s no lies in it... it is clear. This is what Sri Patanjali tells us. Our work is to make our mind like crystal, so that we can hear the inner voice. So we can be aware of the witness within us. If this is too noisy, if there are too many thoughts, how are you going to know who you really are? How is the mirror which is the mind, going to reflect your higher Self, which is your spirit, which is pure.

Intuition comes from this purity. Deep intuition. This is what as yogis we need to develop. This is why Sri Patanjali tells us in Book two, sutra 36, ‘For one established in truthfulness, actions and their results become subservient’… you live the truth and you speak the truth, and the truth will follow you. Whatever you need it will come to you’… This is how nature works…

I have hundreds of students who have practiced truthfulness… They have seen how this great power does really work in our lives. Sometimes it does not happen right away, sometimes it takes years, because I believe the Universe waits to see are you really sincere? Or are you only doing it because you want something back in return?”

Part two: Truthfulness in the Workplace

(Minute 22.30 to end)

NC: Hi Amber… I have known you for so many years and that is the reason why I’ve invited you tonight. I have known you since you were a young girl and danced in my dance group. Always so full of life, always so enthusiastic. I always thought you would end up as a performer. But instead, you became a lawyer… Tell us what made you go into this profession?

AT: … I think Lawyers are in a way, performers, especially barristers. I remember being invited once to an interview …where they asked me- what made you want to become a lawyer and I answered, I think I am a frustrated actress actually!

But the reason why I decided to pursue a career in law is because when I was age 5 my parents separated and the separation was not an easy one. At the time I was very young and I wasn’t totally aware of what was going on; but it was quite traumatic to the extent that we had to relocate back from England to Gibraltar, I had to change schools, I had to make new friends, learn the Spanish language … There were many, many changes.

When I was age 12, whilst my mum was out at work and I had just come back from school that I was looking for something, and I accidentally (or not, as fate would have it) came across my parents’ divorce file. By the age of 12 I was able to read through the file and appreciate what exactly my mother had gone through at that time.

Again, it was the basis of the lies that I could read through the correspondence between the lawyers and the untruths, the harm that was caused to my mum who was quite young at the time and of course, to us. At age 12 I was already mature enough to appreciate how this had had such a strong, and quite a negative impact and a harmful impact on my family. At the age of 12 and younger, I felt that I had no power to, ‘right the wrongs,’ or, to somehow change what had happened. But what I was then determined to do, was moving forward into the future, was to get myself into a position where I could influence what happened in these situations of separation and divorce. So, as a lawyer you gain that position of influence through the court system and now, outside the court system, through Mediation and through what I have developed as what I call a, ‘Holistic Law Model’.

NC: Amber tell me something about this Holistic Law Model and tell me as well, being a woman in a very male orientated profession, how was it for you? How could you keep your values of truth and justice? …We are told that nowadays …when you go to a lawyer it is all about money! Where is the justice? Do you really value this law? How do you do it?

AT: I started Amber Law in 2013. By then I had been practising law for about 14 years. Yes, I had been working in other law firms where still at least locally, it is very much a patriarchal system, the women are outnumbered by the men in positions of influence and power within those structures. It is changing which is the good news, certainly it has changed a lot since I graduated in 1999.

But still at the time that I was going through the first few years of my career I found it very hard and very challenging. Why? Because for instance… on my very first day of work as a barrister; as you can imagine after so many years of study and exams, and passion for what I thought was going to be a career in service to others, I arrived at the law firm to be given the introductory talk. I sat there in my new suit, feeling really inspired and excited. The talk was about money. That really was it. The focus was ‘you are here to bill’, you need to collect so much money every month, these are the budgets, this is the target, this is what you need to bring in.

It went further. They also brought in competition with other peers. So, every month they would put up visible to all, a ledger which showed how much money each lawyer was collecting for that month.

Now, …businesses need to make money absolutely and of course we have to be paid value for the service we are providing, but what I found very difficult to deal with was the fact that I was thinking, well where is the inspirational talk about selfless service to others, doing justice in the world, making our community a safer place, elevating social justice; what about all of that? Because to be honest, I think that I’m not alone in saying that there are many lawyers and law students who are out there who decided to follow a career in law because they really wanted to make a difference.

NC: That is absolutely true. In my life I have counselled three lawyers who have studied hard to be lawyers, but in the end actually went into the law firm and realised it’s the last thing they wanted to do because it was all about money. So, this is absolutely a fact.

AT: I am glad you’ve said that because in the UK at least, the Law Society has statistics now on how many lawyers are suffering from depression, other symptoms of stress like sleeplessness, palpitations, stress, anxiety and even suicide. The suicide rates among lawyers in the UK is about 3 times higher than the national average. That speaks volumes.

One thing I want to talk about today and share with you about truthfulness, is something you that you’ve mentioned before in your introductory talk. For me truthfulness is about working in alignment with who we are as human beings, in alignment with our purpose, in alignment with our mission in this world. And so, when you are moving away from that truth, what you are doing is I think causing yourself harm. And whether we are conscious of it or not, and a lot of people are at different stages of awareness and awakening in this process, but if you are not aware and you are not awake, of course you might not know where to go to get those tools.

I was so blessed and so lucky to have you in my life from a very young age. I came to the Integral Yoga Centre pretty much after you founded it in Gibraltar over 25 years ago. I was really lucky, I had you, I had your guidance, I had your support, your direction, I had the teachings of Sri Patanjali through the Raja Course, through Sri Swami Satchidananda’s translation and you gave us tools, tools which I have used in my practice as a Holistic Lawyer.

When I called ‘Amber Law’ as I did, it was for two reasons. First of all because Amber is my name, but also because Amber is a healing stone. To me, lawyers are here on this earth to assist clients to resolve the conflict they are in, resolve the disputes they are in- to get through that legal process but in a way that will lead them to a place of peace of mind, harmony and wellbeing.

In order to do that, what I have done in effect is use the same tools that I used to help myself through the process, as a guide for my clients to do the exact same thing. So, not just the Raja Yoga Teachings, but for example mantras, repetition of positive affirmations, I used breathing techniques every time before I went into court, …I don’t know what people were thinking in the toilet cubicle next to me! The sound of me heavy breathing! The hatha yoga classes helped tremendously.

Of course, I have slipped back from practice. What is very important to remain grounded in truth, to remain grounded in honesty, in integrity, in all these other values which are connected to truthfulness, you need to keep to the practice. There have been may times when I have got busy, busy, busy, forgotten the practice, suffered the consequences and said right, time to go back to see Nalanie and back to my class and back to my practice!

With Holistic Law what I’ve done is to say, just to give practical examples… In the context of law firms which advocate fee earning as the top priority, over and above every other value, what can happen is… I am not saying this happens all the time but what may happen, the danger is, that when there is a chance to settle a case early, rather than go for the early settlement, rather than be sensible, fair, reasonable and so on, lawyers might think, ‘no, no no- I need to take this case all the way through to litigation, all the way through the courts, this needs to take last at least another six months, so that I can earn the fees I need to earn to look good in this firm, to become eventually a partner in this firm, to progress in my career.

I have practised the opposite… I have turned it around. Of course, yes, I have to earn a fee but I am not going to live a life, or work from a place, of fear. I think that in any profession, in any place of work that you are operating in, you will come in every day and work- as in think, speak and act- from either a place of love, or a place of fear. If from a place of love, you are not in lack, you are in abundance. If you are in abundance you are also in the faith that whatever you do, and if you are truthful, if you stick to that integrity- that the good you do will stay with you. It is when you are in fear, that you come into this, ‘lack’ mentality, that then you think, ‘no, I can’t possibly settle this case early’, or ‘I need to sell this person something they don’t actually need’, or, ‘I’m going to say this car requires its 4 tyres changing rather than just the oil change’, and so on and so forth, because this can be translated to any service industry.

If you come from a place of lack, it is basically about fear and greed. We know all of that leads to us feeling stressed and anxious and out of sync with whom we really are.

NC: Amber I can really vouch for that. The amount of clients you have sent me and you tell them please try and get along and get this divorce done quickly. I can vouch for you Amber. You really have done the best for your clients… One of your clients as a couple came to me- you’ve sent so many- and one of the lawyers was advocating that they ask for more money, and more money, and the other lawyer, you were saying: why do you want to do this to your partner, why do you want to do this to each other? You loved each other once upon a time, can’t you do this amicably? And when I pointed this out to both of them, I said, ‘’which route do you want to take? War, or peace?’ I remember they chose peace. They went back to you and the case was handled very beautifully and it’s so good for the children isn’t it?

AT: Absolutely.

NC: I was really impressed that as a lawyer you did that. You were not thinking dollars and bucks- you were thinking for them. What was best for them, what was best for the family, what was best for humanity, you were thinking about their children. I so respect that.

AT: Thank you Nalanie. No man is an island- every person who is going through a dispute, or a conflict, be it at home or at the workplace, is going to suffer feelings of anxiety, of stress or depression and so on. Everybody who is connected to that individual: children, a spouse, a partner, colleagues at work, employers, will also be affected in what I call the ‘ripple effect’. Even in lockdown, we are not living in islands, we are still connected!

So, it’s so important to me that we go to the truth of matters and that people are fair. In terms of being truthful with clients, if a client has come to me and said, ‘This is what I want you to do on my behalf’, and once I have investigated the facts of the case, or I have seen some evidence, I have thought no actually this is not fair or reasonable- you are in pain, you are lashing out and you want to punish- so what lawyers need to also be aware of, and other people in the workplace… is never to allow yourself to be used as a vehicle to cause pain to others. That is why keeping to your truth … I was going to say whatever the costs but that is a difficult one, because we can find ourselves in situations where maybe we cause more harm than good- but certainly in the cases that I have been dealing with, going to the truth of matters, trying to support clients through the Holistic Well-being Network, such as yourself and other therapists…

NC: What other therapies do you advise them to go to? I’d be very interested to hear that.

AT: Whilst we are working though the legal problem, the dispute, the Mediation and so on, what I will do is I will get my Holistic Well-being Network engaged, so the idea is that whilst we are working through the legal problem or dispute and so on, and through that process, my client and even sometimes the family, or colleagues, or close friends, will also be engaged in receiving the support and guidance they need emotionally, mentally and spiritually.

It is important to make the distinction between what the lawyer does and what the professionals do as well. Although I am a lawyer who practices in a Holistic way which means that I see my client as a whole, I understand that people sometimes come into disputes because they have personal challenges that come from childhood usually, or later on in life.

…I’ll tell you a story. I had this couple who came to see me, and they wanted to get divorced. They were in their 60s/70s... they were grandparents… I found it very surprising… as you say when you work in truth your intuition does become sharpened… My intuition was telling me- no, there is something I don’t know, I need to know more… So, I started asking questions. It transpired that the lady’s mother was suffering from cancer and she was relying on her daughter, the client who had come in, to help her through that terminal cancer which obviously as you can imagine, was a very traumatic event for this lady. I spoke to the husband and it transpired that he was going through a situation of workplace bullying. So, once you home-in to what is actually going on with each individual, through the client conference, I found out that the truth was actually not that they did not love each other, not that there was a problem with their marriage, but that there were external factors impacting on each one of them, in such a way that they could no longer cope and they could no longer support each other. So, the Holistic Well-being Network- what I did then is call the Cancer Relief Centre to arrange respite so my client had some ‘time out’. Then on the legal side of it, rather than draft divorce documents, I ended up defending this gentleman with his workplace bullying situation!

It’s funny isn’t it because if I had been money minded as a top priority … again I am not saying that we should not earn money for the services we give- but what we can’t do is be blinded and just forget about the truth and move forward just to get a quick dollar. What we need to do is go straight to the truth and see what is the truth of this. There have been times, as you say Nalanie, that I have sent clients to you and I’ve never seen them again and I’m so happy I never did! [Laughs] This means that they worked on their marriage or whatever issues and solved them and found that place of peace and healing… We nipped the problem in the bud and went straight to the root cause, the underlying issue of what was impacting on each one of them and therefore the marriage. So, that is just one example of how the Holistic approach works. Its looking not just at the problem that you are being brought if not I would just take a deposit, sat down and drafted their divorce papers, but go one step further which isn’t really that far either, to investigate the truth behind what is actually going on.

NC: Amber and isn’t it amazing what Sri Patanjali says, “By one firmly established in truth, actions and their results become subservient. You are proof of that. You have followed the truth, rather than the greed. Its so obvious by everything you have said. As a result, you have your own law firm, isn’t that incredible? A self-made woman! Not only that, the way you’ve looked after your mother, you’ve cared for her, doing everything for her and not only that, you got your own home. Tell us something about it, you see it does work. This magic of truth does work.

AT: It does. Abundance comes. There are other values linked to truth- for there to be truth there also has to be fearlessness, there has to be courage to speak out when you have to speak out and stand up when you have to stand up and be counted. I want to read from Nalanie’s Book Divine Grace, chapter 38 which is about truthfulness and you say, ‘Our time is limited, we must be true to ourselves or we will live our lives as robots’. Then, ‘When we live in truth, we are free’ and ‘Wherever there is untruth, there will be pain’. If you lie, there is an untruth and there is pain. So why do people lie?

In recent years I’ve done a lot of work with workplace bullying cases. I think what we have come to now unfortunately, is a time in our lives when a lot of people are very focused on image, labels, titles, on money, promotions and so on. Again, abundance is not wrong, living a life of luxury is not wrong, its wonderful and how many wonderful things can we do with all that money and energy, in helping and serving others, including ourselves! But again, we need to be aware that we are not selling ourselves, we are not selling our truth, we are not selling our souls as an exchange for that.

I also believe in the law of karma. What goes around, comes around. All religions mention the law of karma. Even Albert Einstein said, ‘to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction’ and I see this. I see this in my practice and in my personal life. Sutra 36 [text] also reads that, ‘With establishment in honesty the state of fearlessness comes’. You do not need to be afraid of anybody and you can live a free life, which is what you said in your Divine Grace book. How else would we want to live other than in that state of peace of mind and freedom?

NC: Yes. How else would you want to live? This is why it is so wonderful to have you here today to show people who are in professions. I keep getting asked, ‘oh Nalanie, well and good for you. You can do it. But you can’t really do it in a job, or in a workplace, or in a profession’. I say, ‘Yes you can. My father did it. I know people who do it, and you are one in this generation that is doing it. You are the proof of it. That makes me feel, ‘wow’, that’s why you are our first guest on this show! [Laughs] Isn’t life a show? I love that you play your part so beautifully. You are such an example to other people, other women, other men out there; that there is no need to hurt people, there is no need to lie. Yes, challenges will come. We will be pushed to the very brink of our sanity sometimes, just to stick to the truth. Sometimes you wonder why because you are put down so much as you have experienced during your profession. You have been pushed to your limit – if you weren’t truthful you probably would have grown much quicker but you stuck to your guns and to your truth.

Hearing you is so inspiring because it does work. What I love is what you are about to do next in your practice. I believe you are about to write a book; I also believe that you are going to take this work to the world at large and promote this kind of thinking with lawyers. Tell us something about this.

AT: First of all, just to answer your question, I need to say it hasn’t been easy; you are absolutely right! Along the way I have been put down, by senior lawyers in rooms of junior lawyers and ridiculed in front of everyone- I’ve been told I’m too altruistic, I’ve been told by a judge I am too emotional, I’ve been told that I don’t take this profession seriously and think it’s some sort of a charity – it’s not easy. It’s not easy when you are younger. As you grow older, I think you grow more wise, experienced, or mature. When you are younger and more impressionable, especially when you look up to people in the profession who then speak to you this way, it can be quite a blow. A lot of women drop out of the profession. A lot of men do as well. But a lot of women do drop out of law. Especially those trained as barristers. I certainly know in Gibraltar of quite a few women who have.

NC: So do I.

AT: It’s hard. It’s not like overnight I opened my law firm and everything’s amazing. There was a journey, it took a lot of knocks to myself. It was a bit of a roller coaster ride in trying to bring myself up again and say, ‘no, I know the way I want to practice in truthfulness, is the right way to do it’. As in the story of the boy who cried wolf, if you behave that way you lose credibility. Credibility, respect and reputation is not something you can buy. It is not for sale. You have to earn it.

(Min 50)
Moving on to your last question. I thought I was alone in my way of thinking, about practising law in this holistic way. It was only a few years ago that I came across a book by J Kim Wright (an American lawyer and author published by the American Bar Association and has two books out now) called, ‘Lawyers as Peacemakers, Practising Holistic Problem-Solving Law’. I was so overwhelmed when that book landed on my lap because suddenly it opened a number of doors- a world to me – of lawyers who practice heart-centred law.

People such as David Wexler who co-founded Therapeutic Jurisprudence who I have since met; Stu Webb who founded Collaborative Family Law who I have also connected with; I am anow a Member for the Project for the integration of Spirituality, Law and Politics (PISLAP); and a member of the International Society for Therapeutic Jurisprudence; I came across online Magazines such as, ‘The Conscious Lawyer’ and met really amazing educators such as Dr Emma Jones, Dr Anna Kawalak both senior law lecturers at University who have got their books out now about Emotions in the Law School and Problem Solving Courts. I also met Dr Yue Ang who is also a law lecturer interested in looking at mental health and law students and Dr Amar Dhall and Brad Roth. Brad Roth teaches Meditation with Mediation in New York.

Originally, I used to go to bookstores in London and say can you please do a search on any book about holistic law, or healing law and they would look at me like I’d just taken some funny medication! It wasn’t until I came across Kim’s book – there is so much I owe her as my world has opened up.

Sutra 36 text also reads that in truthfulness things come to you automatically, without you having to seek them out. A final story- when I read her book, and I thought oh goodness I am not crazy! There are so many lawyers out there since the 1980s- I am not a visionary I’m actually behind the times in the USA at least who are far ahead! I wanted to meet J Kim Wright. I thought she’s American- I’m going to have to go to America to find her- then I found out that she travels all the time so she doesn’t actually stay in one place for very long. In 2019 I was invited by Dr Jones and Dr Kawalak to attend the Open University in Milton Keynes. His was the very first meeting for the UK Chapter on Therapeutic Jurisprudence can you imagine? The movement started in the mid 1980s and it was only in 2019 that these two ladies pioneered putting the Chapter together for the United Kingdom. I attended that event. I met a lady there [Rhiannon Thomas] who said to me, ‘my goodness, you are one of us!’ which I completely understood, I said, ‘yes, I am tribe, I am certainly one of you guys!’ She said I need to introduce you to my mentor. I asked, ‘who is your mentor?’ and she replied, ‘J Kim Wright!’ I was looking for the hidden camera at that point thinking this is crazy, random, what are the chances. She asked me will you be in London next week? I said I wasn’t going to be but I now had a feeling I would be! I spent two days with Kim.

It has been an incredible journey, it has not been easy, it been very rough. But I can certainly say that when you stick to the course, and you stick to your truth and you stick to the truth and you work in alignment with your soul purpose and you have faith that you are guided, directed and protected, it is so true that things come to you. All these opportunities are opening doors to me being able to learn more and offer more for my clients.

I am building my new website so I am excited about that and writing the first book which will be sharing the Holistic Law Model that I’ve come up with, that I’ve created for lawyers and for the clients as well. It will be a practical guide for lawyers to understand what they have to do from the moment they wake up to the moment they get home after a long working day. Hopefully, my aim is to help not just lawyers live and work in a way that brings them wellbeing but that also in turn empowers them to do the same for their clients throughout the legal process.

NC: Wonderful Amber. I wish you much luck and joy. I think you have all the blessings from the gods and the universe. Because as Sri Patanjali says, you are established in truth. It doesn’t mean as you said and I keep telling our viewers that you won’t get obstacles in life- you will. It’s just the way you handle it. In Raja 2, Sri Patanjali tells us, ‘Pain that is yet to come, is avoidable’. It is just with this knowledge we can avoid pain. By practising these truths. This is why the yamas and niyamas are so vital in our life. I think in your book if you can mention them especially more than anything else: non-greed, truthfulness, non-violence… If you just practice one, like truthfulness, all the rest follow… This is what the universe does all the time, if we could focus, hear and see we would not be depressed at all. Even in difficult times we would see these rays of light… We keep looking for angels out there – stop and start looking at the angel within yourself, start to see the angels surrounding you. Amber you mentioned your mentors- all angels- do you see how many there are?

I want everybody today to understand one thing. Our world is getting better. It really is. Between 1980s when I was called a witch for doing yoga and people didn’t know about Holistic Law and now, we are talking! Look on Youtube how many good people there are on there. Wonderful people spreading spirit. Our world is much better. But we have to see the dark, the real dark before the light comes through. As yogis don’t give up our practice of truthfulness. Our lives will be interesting. Full of adventure.

AT: The beautiful thing about being so connected – and sorry I realized I didn’t answer fully your question about the Holistic Well-being Network, I work with a special lady called Marie Fox who works as an Art Therapist. We are doing collaborations now between lawyers and artists; between lawyers and musicians (music therapy); between lawyers and acupuncturists; between lawyers and yogis. It is such a beautiful world. We are starting to see all of us have our common humanity. In order to elevate that common humanity to a higher place, a better place where there is more light, we need to work together. I’ll end with that and thank you very much for having me.

NC: It’s been such a joy. Yes humanity, work together, laugh together. My Master Sri Swami Satchidananda always said- yes, use me as a guru, as a teacher for as long as you want. But that is not the aim. The aim is to find the guru inside of you. When you do, I will be your crutch until then. Then you drop the crutch and we can dance together; walk together, laugh together, in a world full of hope. We must never lose hope. Recently, in the last few months because of Covid19, people have lost so much hope. This is what we must now focus on. On things that elevate us, not bring us down.

So Amber you have inspired me. Thank you. I think you have inspired many people. Thank you for coming to the talk today and sharing your knowledge. I really appreciate it.

AT: Thank you. If anyone wants to contact me please do during these difficult times when we are working from home. My email is: The website is Thank you all very much for listening. Thank you Nalanie, Anna, Shanti, Les, thank you all.

NC: Our joy. Thank you all for coming today.